#41 Jeff Wagner: IAQ and the Health Building Movement

Jeff Wagner

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Welcome to another episode of the Modern Facilities Management Podcast, today's guest is Jeff Wagner. Jeff, how you doing man? 

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

I'm good, Griffin. Yourself?

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton 

I'm not going to complain, not going to complain at all. If I did, no one be listening anyway but well, hey I appreciate you coming on. I know we actually met previously at a conference here in Myrtle Beach, a few weeks back but although I know you want to explain to the audience who you are and what exactly it is you do.

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

Yeah, so I'm an architect by trade, have a long history in the architecture field. Spent the last six years in public service, first as the Director of Design and Construction for Clark County School District and then most recently as the chief of facilities for the last couple years. I stepped down from that position at the beginning of the year to join a tech startup that's working on an ecosystem of healthy building solutions, R- Zero. So, I've had a storied and a broad career in buildings and looking to tackle from a different perspective this time. So, as opposed to being the person designing or operating the facilities, now I'm contributing to the products and solutions that get put in place. 

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton 

Yeah and so let's kind of dive straight into it now that you've made that transition and it is interesting being on one side and then moving on to the other side as you've done having that type of perspective but what type of technologies are you guys dealing with and really being forefront on the, I guess the innovation component of this? 

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

Yeah, so R-Zero is a company, focuses primarily on UVC technology and making that smart and democratizing access to that technology. So, our founders took a look at what hospitals were doing. Historically, they figured if we have a building where we bring a bunch of sick people to the building and there's not a tremendous cross contamination, somebody probably figured out a good mousetrap. And what they found is every well capitalized hospital in the country uses UVC technology to disinfect operating rooms and turnover patient rooms. Traditionally, that technology had been priced based on the risk that it was mitigating. So, hospital acquired infections or HAIs are very costly to hospitals to the tune of approximately $40,000 per incident. So, hospitals were willing to spend a lot of money to mitigate this risk and there's some very good devices in that space, that are typically over six figures. So, our founders looked at that and said, well, we think we can design and build a comparable unit for less money. And in fact, they build what we feel is the best unit on the market and have the test results to back that up and we're able to price it on the bill of materials, not the risks that it mitigates. So, they were able to offer that to new markets, specifically K 12. And in fact, that's how I met R- Zero is we were at a conference and he told me we have this great solution for you and as all good facilities managers are, always highly skeptical of their product. But they said enough good things that I was willing to bring in industrial hygienists and verify the efficacy you know, by third party. So, we did that at Clark County School District, I found it to be effective, found it to be well received by our staff that was responsible for those tasks and ultimately ended up rolling out across all of our buildings, their original flagship product. But more interesting than that to me, was their installed products. So, they essentially have three major products at the moment. One is a device, the UVC tower that disinfects unoccupied spaces, so it's essentially an augmentation of your current custodial practices that would displace things like electrostatic disinfection. And Clark County School District, like many school districts around the country, we were doing Clark electrostatic disinfection and that's been completely displaced by UVC. There are other two products actually can disinfect spaces while they are occupied and the first of those products is called beam, it's an upper room UV unit. Essentially, the mounts between seven and nine feet off the floor, shoots a horizontal beam of UVC light across the top of the space. As you and I talk, the air that's leaving our bodies obviously is warmer through natural convection rises to the top the room gets radiated. So, we've tested that particular unit in a 500 square foot space that provides the equivalent of 12/80 air exchanges an hour. So, that's a tremendous amount of air changes if you're trying to accomplish it through your traditional HVAC system. And third product actually can disinfect spaces, air and surfaces. It uses UVC light at 222 nanometers, which has been proven to be human safest. Essentially, there's research out of Columbia University that shows that 10,000 hours of exposure to 222 does the same cellular damage as 10 minutes of exposure to the sun. The advantage of that unit is obviously in higher risk basis such as restrooms, nurses, offices, spaces where surface contamination is a bigger concern, it can disinfect both the air and surfaces. The downside to that particular unit, it's a smaller footprint, right? So, where our beam unit can easily do 1000 square feet are typical sized classroom, the vibe is really limited to about 170 square feet and better suited for smaller spaces. But in general, my interest really lies in the ecosystem of solutions, the R- Zero is developing. So, I made a decision, I was leaving my school district for a variety of reasons and anybody who keeps up with Clark County School District would know why. A job became very political in nature and I made the decision I was moving on. Obviously, it was approached by contractors, architects, this was the one company that approached me that pushed me way outside my comfort zone. It wasn't a job I was going to go to and be immediately successful in and understand all the nuances of and I thought that was a great growth opportunity for myself. I thought it was also an opportunity to bring a wealth of knowledge to the company, they didn't currently have experts in building space. So, it is kind of a great marriage, I believe in the ethos of the company. And it's allowed me to continue on my personal mission of making schools better for kids and that's what my job was at the school district, facilities was a medium by which to do that. Meeting with R- Zero has given me the opportunity to spread that information and have an impact at even a larger scale than I did when I was at Clark High School District.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton 

Yeah, that was taking a step back and looking at all these great technologies that you're working with and that the Arduino has produced and keeps reducing. It is that big picture of now having that technology available for K 12 and so what does that really mean in the grand scheme of things? We're making this transition, having this technology available but to someone listening that may have not looked into this in much depth or just has a base level knowledge of what the technology is, what kind of impact could that have on a K 12 ecosystem?

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

So, I think the very basic impact that it can have is obviously on alternatives to chemical disinfection. The longer-term impact that generally providing better buildings for this process has implications to student performance, right? And my job at Clark County School District, obviously was very broad in nature. The products and services, solutions that R- Zero offers, were one of many solutions that we were implementing. We had implemented, basically a healthy Buildings Initiative and that's multifaceted. There is no silver bullet, there is no product or a single supplier out there that's going to solve all of your issues around indoor air quality or the quality of space. So, I encourage all facility managers and I believe that's the audience of your particular podcast, right? All facility managers should keep a healthy skepticism, should be evaluating their ultimate goal and how that aligns with the core mission of their organization. When I was with Clark County School District, our core mission was very well defined, it was student performance. And I was looking for solutions that could have a positive impact to student performance rather than a negative impact. And far too often as facility managers, we live in a world where the phone only rings when the roof leaks. It's too cold in the building, it's too hot in the building, something's wrong, right? Very rarely do we get a phone call, you know, I was so much more successful in achieving my mission today because the building helped me do it. And we were very passionate at CCSD and I'm still very passionate about delivering spaces that help people perform better in whatever their performance metric is. Right? So, if we're talking about an office space that may correlate to increase sales or increase bottom line for that business, we're talking about K 12. Obviously, that's happier, healthier, more prepared students to take on the challenges of the world. So, I want to be very careful about not coming across as a, this is the secret sauce to success, it's always a mitigated and layered approach to achieving that. So, I believe that the pandemic has given us an opportunity to start a broader conversation. I was just having lunch with a colleague today and I simply asked him three years ago, how many people did you have a conversation with about MERV 13 filters? He's like, well, never. Nobody ever had like, that just, you know, occasionally, maybe a mechanical engineer or an HVAC technician would have that conversation. And like in the last six months, how many people have you had that conversation with? He’s like, everybody, everybody is talking about air filtration, everybody's talking about indoor air quality. I think that is an opportunity for us as facility managers to seize on this awareness about the indoor environment and the impact that the indoor environment has on our well-being. Whether that's pathogen, mitigation through disinfection, technologies like UVC or it's providing natural daylight or views in a space or simply just ensuring that the cleaning protocols are followed and we don't have dander and allergens and things of that building up in our carpet. A building is a complex organism and we play a huge role in the well-being of the people who occupy it, whether they realize it or not. And I think there's a heightened awareness around that I believe that gives facilities managers, capital, program managers, architects, contractors an opportunity to really shine and illustrate, articulate the value that those professions deliver to the health, safety and well-being of their occupants. And I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir in that regard, right? Everybody listening to the podcast are probably going, yeah, we're really important and we all believe we're really important. It's now an opportunity for us to articulate that to the general public and have a conversation about what do we as individuals and a society when to invest in. And what I want to invest in, I don't think anybody would argue with this is a better future, the buildings that we occupy and the people who take care of those buildings play an outsized and generally undervalued role in that process. So, part of our goal at R- Zero is to offer products and solutions that can help those individuals be successful. Part of my goal personally, is to empower those individuals with knowledge and science to meet their goals. So, it's always been very important to me that I am associated with organizations that first and foremost are about people and that's obviously the case in a public-school system. But I think as I reentered into the private sector, I found a group of people who are deeply committed to doing things well and providing solutions that align with the core mission of the various organizations that we partner with. 

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton 

There's lots of digest there and I do want to go back and touch on this movement going from you know, green buildings and to healthy buildings. And you recommended a book to me when we initially spoke, healthy buildings by Joseph Allen and that has been a really good read. I'm about halfway through it but a few points that I want to go on here after this but you mentioned having an impact on individuals in a corporate organization. And how you know, indoor air quality and a healthy building have a direct impact there but kind of tying it back into your previous life in the K 12 space, someone listen and be like okay, this is great technology. How does a building, an indoor air quality have a direct impact on someone's performance or a child's test scores? So, let's look at that and digest that and dive down that rabbit hole, how does that actually happen? 

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

Yeah, so I think that there's a lot of research on the matter, right? And I would encourage anybody who's interested to look at some of that research but it is not uncommon knowledge that things such as CO2 can impair performance, that's pretty all that common knowledge and we've all experienced that, right? We've all been in a long car drive where we started to get drowsy and we don't understand why we're tired. We got a good night's sleep the night before. Well, you know, just probably concentration of CO2 in that space, it's above what it should be. And there's been a number of studies done around how that impairs performance, both in students and office workers and other cases. And there's a ton of research out there about air quality and the impact asthma has on occupants. How does all that correlate to student performance? In my mind, there's a huge correlation, there's studies out there that show that absenteeism is correlated with poor student performance. So, one would assume that if you can decrease absenteeism, you should have an impact on student performance. So, a lot of the initiatives I took at CCSD, were kind of twofold. First, make sure the buildings aren't a distraction. Simply make sure that the roofs not leaking and it's not too warm, it's not too cold so that principal and that teacher are not spending time focused on the building. And then I wanted to take that further than okay, that's just the bare minimum, right, make sure the building provides shelter and does it in a way that's not distracting. How can we make sure through science that we're actually improving the environment? And we started to look at studies at science, you know, what do views do for students? There's science out there that shows natural daylight is important for students, it helps their performance. There’re studies out there that show that a buildup of CO2 hurts their performance. So, we started to tackle things like that in our initiatives, as we design buildings, it didn't just become about, can we provide shelter? It came about can we provide shelter that is a net positive impact and this is an extraordinarily complex problem, right? So, unfortunately, nobody listening to the podcast today is going to get the three things they need to do to make every building successful. I wish I understood that and I could articulate it that clearly. The reality is we employed the very smartest people we could get. We got the best architects, the best engineers and the best thought leaders in the space and said, how can we do it differently? And it's all incremental, right? There’re all these incremental changes, the specific role that disinfection played in that as we understood, as an organization that there was a desire and a requirement for greater disinfection. The current tools we had available were antiquated, to say the least, right, we use chemicals. We've been disinfecting spaces the same way for the last century. So, we started to look at what are the other technologies that are out there? And there's lots of them out there, right? There's lots of technologies that claim that they provide a better indoor space or better air quality or kill pathogens. And like I said, I think it's important to have a healthy skepticism about all the claims that are made and really understand what is the third-party test? What were the parameters of the third-party test? Before just jumping out and saying unequivocably, this technology works or that technology works? I think the thing that made me comfortable with UVC has its very long track record. The germicidal properties UVC were discovered approximately 1903. It's been used in wastewater treatment since the 1910s. It's been used in hospitals for close to seven years now. It's not a novel technology and there's volumes of research behind the efficacy of UVC to disrupt pathogens, that's unequivocal. I think that where we're at now is trying to understand these different disinfection methods, do they change human behavior? I knew that part of my responsibility as the chief of facilities was to ensure that my staff was safe. The fact they had to put on a respirator and PPE to apply the product that we were applying was problematic for me. There's human error in that process, right? Even though we do the things like, have the respirator fit, test and do training, I'm sure all of us have experienced a situation where somebody who was properly trained wasn't properly using their PPE. So, that was obviously a concern for me and just the fact they had to do that, it made their job uncomfortable, I wanted to get away from that. I also was concerned about the long-term exposures to low level of chemicals, I had principals and teachers call me and say, I can fill it on the desk. I'm so happy you disinfected my room last night and that horrified me really, there's a residue being left behind. I'm not so sure that you should be feeling that on your desk, which led to our proper protocols being followed, etc. So, the thing that I appreciated about UBC in my previous life was when it was on, it was working and when it was off, there was no exposure. It did not leave a residue behind, the devices, the R- Zero provided CCSD with redundant safety features built in. So, it mitigated the risk of exposure and went through PIR sensors. So, they built products with a safety-first mindset and when I went to my chemical suppliers said, well, what's your safety-first objective here, they're like, here's a respirator. Here's the Tyvek suit that your people need to wear and it will protect them and I just seemed like a business as usual, archaic way to approach it.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton

Yeah, that certainly makes sense there and I guess, kind of switching gears and go back to just the big picture once again of this transition going from the green initiative that being you know, forefront into the healthy building, what does that look like and I guess give a high-level view and then let's deep dive?

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

Yeah. So, I think that we're all aware what green buildings are and the metrics of green buildings typically tend to be like, how much am I going to save on my electricity bill, it's very easy to major. I believe healthy buildings is an evolution of that. We talked about VOCs and things of that nature and green buildings. You know, LEED has those requirements, I think the person takes center stage in the healthy building concept. You mentioned Joseph Allen's book, it's a wonderful read, I think it's a great primer on the much larger conversation that's taking place. And by no means am I the expert on healthy buildings, there's a lot of really smart people in this space, doing excellent work. My take on it, in my opinion is really about, it's about reevaluating the mission of buildings and understanding that without people buildings don't exist. So, we need to make sure that we're taking the appropriate steps to provide the very best solution for the people that are going to occupy that building. Now, the net benefit to that for an organization is, if your staff is not getting headaches and going home early and things of that nature because your building is poor, they actually are uplifted by the experience of being in the building, they're going to be more productive. And I don't think anybody will argue that the most expensive asset we have in any organization is people. So, if we can invest in things that are good for people and potentially improve their performance, it's a solid business case. Not to mention, it's just the right thing to do and it's nice that I believe that healthy buildings are starting to prove out that those two things align much more often than they don't. As an architect, I've oftentimes sat in meetings where myself and even colleagues have said, hey, you should do this business owner because it's the right thing to do. And the business is, it didn't resonate with them. So, I started to change my mentality and say, okay, well, what's important to them? And how can, the things that I want to do that I think are good things to do, can align with their mission and when I started to do that, I got a lot more traction on like providing natural daylight, you know? I got a lot less of, well, it's going to cost me more energy because you know, I'm going to lose heating through or cooling through that window. Windows are more expensive to build than walls, obviously. And we got a lot more clients going, yeah, that makes sense that natural daylight causes a different response from people. So, as healthy buildings evolve and I think it will evolve to dominate the conversation in the next several years, it's already doing that. We're getting more thoughtful about how we design and construct buildings for people, it's not just simply shelter any longer. And I think we're getting a better understanding of truly how those spaces impact us and more importantly than that, I believe there's a greater general awareness. Again, back to, if there is a silver lining to the pandemic, everybody's talking about how buildings impact people and even if they don't realize it, that's what they're saying. They are certainly having that conversation in different terms. So again, I think it's an opportunity to capitalize for architects, engineers, facilities managers, you know, if you have that project has been on the back burner that you couldn't articulate the value of, I think it's much easier to articulate the value of indoor air quality, for example now than it used to be. I don't think anybody's going to say, hey, a filter is a filter is a filter, right? There's enough information out there that now there's different levels of filters and they're designed to do different things and perhaps investing in a higher MERV rating on the filter is a good investment. Whereas I think a couple years ago, somebody be like, well, it's a filter, right? You just you put the filter in, they didn't have a working knowledge of it.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton 

Yeah and I guess with that because I know you mentioned just the build right, of like the difference between having a window and natural lighting versus building out a wall is cheaper. However, a lot of people listening, they don't have the ability where it's not you know, a new construction. Got to do things as a you know, a fixed [unsure 25.00] fact. So, you mentioned filters, is that a good first step that you could take into really having that healthy Building Initiative? 

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

Well, I think there's a lot of low hanging fruit, right? I would encourage any facility manager before you go looking at alternative means just make sure you're doing the fundamental stuff, well make sure that you're on a good preventative maintenance schedule, make sure your filters are changed and they're the right rating. Make sure it's appropriate for the equipment, I'm never going to advocate that, hey, you should go plug in this gizmo before you do the fundamentally important things that we all know that we're doing. And they're done to various levels of fidelity across different organizations, right? So, in the K 12 space, we were consistently resource strained, right? I never had enough staff, I never had enough money and I'll be honest that there were areas in our HVAC, preventative maintenance program that weren't happening at the frequency that they needed to happen at. So, I think, yes, we all know at our core what the fundamentally right things are to do. And we all know, it’s our organization, accomplishing those or not. And I would advocate 10 times out of 10, do the fundamentals first. And once you've got the fundamentals in place and they're working well then start to explore. Well, what are opportunities to augment those fundamentals? And I think that's where other modifications, either your HVAC system, whether it be upgrading MERV 13 filters, increasing outdoor air, there's other modifications that you can do. There's kind of a step two and you just keep building on that success but you can't, it's a foundation, right? If you're not doing the fundamental things on a consistent basis, you're building the rest of it on a faulty foundation. So, I always advocated, what's that? Absolutely and there's a lot of work to be done there. Right? I sat in that chair, I understand that there were tough decisions to make and sometimes those filters didn't get changed in 90 days, it was 120 days, for various reasons, right? The guy was out sick, whatever, the supplier didn't deliver the filters, etc. We all have that low hanging fruit in our organizations and once we're doing that and doing it well, then yeah, absolutely continue to expand on that and engage partners that can bring you further success. There's a lot of work to be done, there's a lot of square footage in the country that's under you know, direct facilities management but I think we have some tools now, right? We have some tools to articulate to decision makers, the importance and value of taking those first steps and then not stopping there. Right? So, once you're able to start that conversation, once you're able to get that decision maker in the room and convince them that, hey, indoor air quality is good for you and good for our organization. What if we do the next thing, here's the value that could bring to the organization and as long as you put it in terms that resonate within terms that are important to them, they'll at least let you have the conversation, right? So, every conversation I had with my superintendent in my school district, it was rarely about the technical aspects of my job, right? It was always about, here's how I think we can help kids and that's what got his attention. He's like, help kids? Okay, I'm going to give you 15 seconds of my attention because you said the right words and then I knew that was my end to advance some of the things that I was trying to advance as a facilities manager. Very rarely did I come to him and complain about, I just don't have enough resources, I just can't do this. And he didn't want to know the difference between MERV 13 filters. He wanted to know that he had a facilities manager who understood that difference. He was making good decisions on his behalf to meet his core goal. So, what made me successful in that position was really understanding my audience, understanding what he cared about and then positioning my group, my team to contribute to that. It gave me a lot of flexibility, it built a lot of trust with him and we had a very successful partnership that allowed me to be successful in that role and really develop a team that's continuing that work on in my absence. And hopefully, I can bring some of that knowledge forward and spread it through my new role with R- Zero and forums such as your podcast. 

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton 

Got to walk before you run, so you got to walk before you run? Well, I love it and I certainly appreciate you coming on and spreading the word and I know this is a big initiative and a big movement that we've got ahead of us and I love talking to people like yourself that are really helping move the industry forward in that direction. But one last question for you, I ask everybody I never prep them but who or what is the biggest impact on you and your career?

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

Who are what? I've had a series of mentors in my career and I can't understate their influence. I have a high school teacher who I took AutoCAD with, right? You know, I think a lot of us probably took AutoCAD in high school or drafting in high school. And he's a dear friend to this day, he actually officiated my wedding about 10 years ago and I continue to stay in touch with him. And he's an advisor, still works, he actually works at Clark County School District, ironically enough. So, stay close with him throughout my entire career has been a great sounding board and then I also had a college professor who unfortunately has passed but same type of relationship. I think it's important to seek out mentors and if you show the initiative, many times they will invest in you. And I've been very blessed to have a number of people invest in me, my college mentor really kind of set me on my current trajectory. We had always talked when I was a student about having my own practice and what that might look like and upon his passing, I quit my job, opened my own practice, kind of on a whim. And I was doing that and teaching in the evenings, which led to my relationship with being recruited by the school district, which obviously led to where I'm at now. So, I credit him with really putting me on that path and I'm always trying to live up to their expectations, right? So, keeps me keeps me pushing forward no matter how successful I think I am, I know that either one of them would simply tell me you're not doing enough, you need to be doing more. So, I would encourage everybody, if you don't have those mentorship relationships in your career, seek them out. And more than that, when you do to achieve some success, no matter how early that success is in your career, offer that same mentorship to your colleagues. I found that to be really rewarding for myself, I taught at the college level for a number of years, I've always been in a position where I was developing people as well as developing my career. And I always found that I got more out of that process than the people that were being mentored, right? I always learned more from my students than they did for me, it's really kind of a cycle. So, I guess to sum that up and articulated kind of in one phrase, it's really is lifelong learning and that learning doesn't happen necessarily in a formal setting but it happens in these informal conversations in the mentoring of people and being mentored by people and really sharing best practices and ideas. So, that has had the most influence on me, it's really just that mentality that was instilled on me by those great mentors in my past.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton

How about that? Love hearing that and that's something where we've preached on this show many a times where you got to find a mentor and you got to pay it for it as well and it's all about the network and the never-ending quest to learn something new. So well, Jeff certainly appreciate once again you coming on the podcast, looking forward to staying in touch and hope to have you on soon.

Speaker: Jeff Wagner  

All right.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton

Of course, take care.

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