Spotlight! Giselle Holder: Facility Condition Assessments

Facility Condition Assessments with Giselle Holder

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Introduction:

Welcome to another episode of the modern facilities management podcast brought to you by strap. I'm your host, Griffin Hamilton. This is the show where I interview industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights into modern day facilities management, from hospitality, to commercial real estate, and everything in between. We'll learn what it really takes to succeed as a facilities manager.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Good afternoon, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of the modern facilities management Podcast. Today. I've got Giselle Holder with me. Giselle, thank you so much for joining us today on the show. How are you doing?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

I'm very good. And thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, absolutely. I know, we've gone back and forth a couple of times. And we've been planning this for a couple of weeks. So, I'm really looking forward to diving in here. And so, to really kick us off, just tell us more about who you are, personally, and we'll dive into the professional stuff here a bit, but give us a little bit more of who you are.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Sure. Thanks for that. Well, as you said, I'm Giselle, and I live, breathe, do everything in Trinidad and Tobago, which is in the Caribbean. We're actually very close to Venezuela, but we speak English, as you can tell. Yeah, so I'm a facility manager. I’m aunt of three, he says, and I'm just really passionate about facility management. So really looking forward to our conversation.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, absolutely. And I did see that you were awarded from FMA the 40 under 40. Is that right?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Yeah, that was kind of cool and unexpected. It also just gives an indication of my age, which isn't a bad thing. But yeah, you know, it was really, really cool. And very humbling, as well to receive that honor.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, and I'm not too familiar with that award. Obviously. 40, under 40, top 40. Do they have different criteria or different categories within that award?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Well, actually, I mean, not to sound like I'm boasting. But it was actually very special, because this was the first year, they put it on, because they were celebrating their 40th anniversary. So, for them, it's like, I would think once in a lifetime. I'm not sure if they're going to keep up some sort of young professional focus. Because there are other awards that FMA does every year through their awards of excellence program. But this one was put on specifically to commemorate the 40th anniversary as an organization. So, it was this application process where persons nominated others. And then it was selected, and it's supposed to be global, and it was global. And they selected, it was two Trinidadians, myself and Tyrrell. And then, of course many other young professionals from the world.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

That is awesome. How did you get notified that you were even nominated, let alone winning?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Well, I thought it was spam. Oh, my goodness. Because that was in the midst of, you know, the whole lockdown throughout the world with COVID-19. You know, everything was virtual, and you're bombarded with even more emails than normal. And this email came in with, you’re a winner. And I'm like, what! But no, in reading, it was very cool, because they had follow-up sessions with us. And so, they will vote their winners. They put a straight sets finalist, and then they came back and said you’re a winner, because that was a little bit confusing, too. Because I was like, do we have to do something more. But then they did explain that it's 40 winners for them to commemorate with the ESMO 40 under 40. And they did special features on us within the FMA Facility Management Journal and other things through their social media.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

That is too cool. That is too cool. And getting into the industry, and we're going to dive into this year in a bit. But it's odd, with women being in the industry as of right now, which hopefully in the very near future, we're going to see a change in that. But what drew you to facilities management, how'd you get exposed to it and what made you so passionate about facilities management?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Yeah. I think my story is very similar to many other persons in facility management and that we fall into it. Unfortunately, a lot of people right now practicing facility management, it was not a planned career, right. So, I started my journey through engineering, I did electrical and computer engineering. And then from that I went into project management and construction. So that's kind of where I started off and within the same company, we saw the connections we between construction and facility management and in terms of that whole handover. And because there were always clients coming back to us about, you know, they want to know more about the building and all these things. So, it was just a natural synergy for us that we fill between the two professions. So, my team, which was a team focused really on renovation type projects within Project Management, outfitting projects, those sorts of things, we were then transitioned into what would then become our facility management consultancy company. And over time too, I would then become the director of facility management of that. So, as I said, it wasn't so much of a planned thing. Unfortunately, I didn't leave high school thinking, yes, I'm going to be a Facility Manager. But you know, certainly the foundation of engineering to me was ideal for it. And you're so right, because I moved from one profession, which is electrical and computer engineering, which is actually very male dominated to another professional that is heavily male dominated. 

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

You can’t get away.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

I just couldn’t. I just kept making these choices, right. But it's good, because it means there's so much opportunity to grow, so much opportunity to share. And I think that's one of the things I really like about it, that there's so much more we still have to do. And to be part of that journey on a local level, on a regional level and international level is really exciting to me.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah. And you mentioned falling into it, or not being intentional from the get go, having that dream of being a facilities manager yet. You also did get your master's in facilities management, correct?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Yes, yes. So, I'm someone I don't do things halfway. So, when our team was, you know, more or less groomed to take on facility management consultancy type projects. At that time, I was just a few years out of university, after having finished my fifth degree. Because, for me too, another thing that's a little bit odd, but that I really like is that I've had one job in terms of one company, my whole life, right. From graduation and even in the university, I’ve worked for the same company. But the reason I stayed is because, you know, I've gone through different positions, through different fields within the same company, so it feels like, different jobs over the years. And part of that too, was you know, just understanding, you know, what facility management is, and I really wanted to do a deeper dive into it. And I felt like, okay, I'm serious about this, you know, let's do this. So, let's do our masters. And yeah, I made a decision, I used FMA to help me search to narrow down on programs, because unfortunately, locally, we don't have any programs in facility management on that level. So that was a great help and met some really wonderful people along the way. And did my masters completely virtual back then. And no regrets. No regrets at all.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

That's very, and how do you think that having a Masters really prepared you beyond that? What really was the change that you saw on yourself, other than the obvious of you know, having a formal education in it? Talk more about that. What was the big difference before and after the masters?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Yeah. I think personally, the Masters was a wakeup call to me in terms of this is serious, I'm making a commitment because it was not cheap, right. So, by saying yes to that, and the two years of additional, you know, you're working and studying, and all that. That whole journey, you know, really opened up my eyes to what facility management can offer, and it actually helped me be more certain in terms of yes, this is what I want to do for the next 10, 15, 20 years. Yeah, I'm confident in that. And, you know, before, I guess, for me, it was more of a, we trying this out, I'm not too certain, you know about what to expect. We also were very fortunate in terms of company I work with. They have partnered with a facility management consultancy company out of Virginia, who are very well established and they helped us a lot with the learning curve. So even through that learning experience, which was still pre masters, you know, I was still very uncertain. And part of the commitment in terms of taking on that master's really just helped solidify what this career meant for me and really looking at it as a career. Looking at facility management is this area that I could grow. And that I could bring what I already have, and you know, maybe amplify that and see where it could me to even further you know. So, there was a change for sure, in that I knew I just had to make this work. [inaudible 10:04] but even more so that you know, it really, really helped me become more focused, I would say, become more strategic in terms of what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, and you brought up an interesting point of having to do the Masters remotely. And that is something where still today there's really not as many or nearly as many masters or even undergrad programs in facilities management as there needs to be. Do you foresee that changing? And even where you're located, are you seeing the popularity of Facilities Management increase?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Definitely. I could actually give real figures for this for us locally, because I'm also involved in our local FMA chapter. So, the main focus for FMA is education, and in terms of grooming, you know, the workforce of our firm. And, you know, when I started off in this chapter, I will be back in 2009, you know, we would never see, say a job, they can see advertising for facility manager and actually asking for qualifications in facility management, you will always see something asking for an engineer, or someone with a technical background. And possibly, when you read the description, you’d notice, okay, that sounds like facility management, but never explicit. So, what we are seeing now, and I would say maybe, as far back as the last three years, or three years coming forward, that you would see that and to me, it represents a maturity and awakening in terms of the business sector. Recognizing facility management as a profession and actually branding it as that. Because we are called so many different names, you know, so I think that was one of the biggest things that we worked on as a chapter just to try to, and it's still a work in progress, as you said, you know, but just to try to make it uniform, and really try to forget the profession out there. And in terms of education, that remains one of our challenges. But we have done a lot of short courses and sort of foundational courses through FMA, and those helped a lot. We've seen a lot of the, I guess, equivalence of community colleges taken on certification programs. And they would do, I would think, programs that can overlap. So, they will do building engineering programs and stuff. But we are still working very feverishly on getting a hardcore, what I would call a hardcore facility management academic program, established locally, but it's good. And as you mentioned, that the 3d virtual world that you could go, you could study, and you could get that certification, you could get that accreditation. And that helps, because then you get to bring back that knowledge and apply it to wherever you are.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, and that, I mean, with everyone being accustomed to working remotely now, no one's going to think twice about having a remote education. And that is going to be one of the perks of the last 14 months that we've adjusted to doing live virtually. You mentioned it, in switching gears here. You mentioned earlier you going from a male dominated industry in engineering to another one in facilities. And on that note, and I've talked to several females and facilities management and that along with just general education being too big, really agenda items there to broadcast what this is, get the education out there, but also have more diversity there. So, talk to me about that. Tell me about your journey as a female in such a male dominated industry what that's like and how you foresee that changing here in the near future.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

I believe that you know, we owe it to ourselves, whatever you want to see and the industry you're in you need to be parted out, right. And so, if I would like to see more females joining this industry than I need to do something about that. So, to me, it ties into the whole both education as well as awareness and advocacy, right, it all to me it's tied together. Because if we keep facility management this sort of like a secret you know, like no one really knows what it's about the only image we have out there may be some you know, a male dominated technical thing that you know, doesn't seem attractive. And I would go beyond even a female stigma even to a younger person. Because that's another challenge we have in terms of the age in facility management. we are old. In our profession the average age is very old. And you know all of it to me is tied together because the only way we can fix that is, as you said, by diversifying, and how do you diversify, there needs to be some sort of very targeted awareness and putting it out there and targeted approach, you know, in terms of changing it. So, I don't expect it to change overnight or by the end of the year, or maybe even in two years. But I have seen over the years, an increase, I guess, slightly in terms of once again, persons making the choice and being females, right, and making the choice in terms of coming on board and stuff. But I also think to that part of it as well as how we tend to hang on to the negative. Certainly, I don't want to trivialize the issues that a person faces. For me, So I've [inaudible 15:55]. There's this old tradition of knocking on wood when you say something that you don't want it to happen, right. For me, though, I have not experience any say prejudices, or you know, any sort of female attacks, so to speak, verbally or otherwise, because of me being in a male dominated environment, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. So, for the person out there who's experiencing stuff, I would say take it through, you know, try to build your little core, and through that be able to share and grow. Because I say it, as I mentioned, at the beginning, that it's on each of us to help grow this field, it’s on each of us to correct any sort of, you know, things we're seeing and we're not in agreement with. And you know, we're only going to do that if we tell our stories. Opportunities like this is to be able to tell, to come and talk and hopefully get it out there. Getting message of it fills us. Really what we need to be doing. Be very tangible. And as I said, very targeted and very purposeful, about bringing in that diversity, bringing in younger persons, you know, and just making the field of facility management, being, you know, more than just a hot topic, you know, it's something lasting. And we want persons on board, we need persons on board, especially with everything going on in the world, you know. I think the facility manager is such a critical resource moving forward, we need more effort.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, it's going to be really interesting here over the next couple of years, you know, speaking to the younger generation getting more involved in facilities management, where technology is having such a more, it's become more and more relevant, with facilities managers from, you know, predictive and prescriptive maintenance to just tech platforms that are helping people in this position to internet of things. I mean, technology it's infused in the industry and your day to day lives, where as an industry, we need to get younger, we need to have people that have grown up with technology that can utilize it to its fullest extent. So, it's not the, and this is the big thing is, we got to get the stereotype that it is just, you know, some old guy, you know, turning a wrench, it is so much more than that.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Yes, it is so much more. And you're very right. It's a stereotype, it's a stigma, and we have to do better. So that's why even going back a bit to the FMA 40 under 40. You know, I saw some persons kind of commenting on Facebook saying, you know, was this necessary, you know. But it is! Because we need to encourage our young persons, we need them, we need to celebrate them, you know. And the same way we celebrate long standing, you know, there's the long-standing service awards and all these things, why not celebrate younger persons who've made a commitment, who've invested in the in their career, and you know, and they see it as something they'd like to spend some time and, and why not? And all that is part of the encouragement that is needed, you know. Because everyone likes some little pats on their back now and then you know, in terms of knowing that, hey, you know, good job and continue on that path.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, certainly. And especially with facilities managers, where they largely go unnoticed, unless something goes wrong. People aren't saying, hey, thanks for keeping the lights on today. It's just, you're taken for granted, unfortunately. And whenever someone is impacted negatively, it's like, okay, where's our facilities manager? I haven't talked to them at all. So, the encouragement, the recognition is certainly needed there.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Definitely. Definitely. Yes, you're right. They always celebrate the bad things, you know, no one quite remember the 95% of things going well. The reason that everything works in your office is because there are people in the shadows just making it happen, you know, and working extremely odd hours to get it done. But it's what we signed up for, you know, no one is really in it for the in glory. But we certainly see the potential in terms of you know, that it's needed. It's a necessity almost. It's essential to the organization and its own survival.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, without a doubt. And so, let's get a little technical here. Because I knew that you wanted to talk about a couple topics that you're really passionate about, you refer to them before we hit the record button as your babies. So, I'm going to leave it to you to go into just your view on facility condition assessments, as well as the facility condition index, and the value that they provide to your customers, to the organization and building as a whole.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

I'm very glad. So, I'm like, how much time do we have? No, but I could break it down. So just to put it into context, the facility condition assessment to me, I found to be one of the most, just wonderful tools in facility management. Because it allows the facility manager to look at the entire facility, and entire building, whatever you take care of, and plan status check, right, so we're able to capture what is our building looking like in this moment, and it goes beyond that. So not only just a status check, you're also able to measure your performance in terms of the building's performance. And if you were to really do this rigorously, the data that you get out of that allows you to one, be able to forecast in terms of when next any major capital improvement projects, any major repairs need to be done. It helps you budget for that. It also helps you get to review your preventive maintenance programs. It helps you look at things like sustainability on a very broad spectrum, and also granular depending on what you want to do with it. And there are just so many different things that you could do with the facility condition assessment. That for me, when I was introduced to this, maybe back in 2011 or so just the concept of it, I just was like, wow, why isn't everyone doing this. And there's value also in terms of you the person, this is my building. You go in and then doing those sorts of walkthroughs or sort of assessment that is also equal, if not greater value in bringing in an external party to be able to do the same, because what tends to happen, we could be a bit complacent, you know, because it's my building, I'm walking this every day. And so sometimes the little things we may miss, you know, we may push aside. And it's really good, even if it's someone else on your team who's on another facility, just bringing them on, say for one day to walk the building and be able to help you identify areas that need attention. It's very, very powerful, right, because it helps us, which is one of the most important things you could do as a Facility Manager, which is to capture an issue before it becomes a big issue, right. Okay, if it is to stop that before it snowballs, you know, before it becomes an emergency, before it becomes you know, something catastrophic, then, you know. Even if I do get a pat on the back, it’s a Pat's on the back, because it's worth it, that's our whole job, right. Whatever prevent these things from happening. And we want to ensure that your facility operations, your productivity always remains up, you know, and we are able to add value to the organization like that. So that's the facility condition assessment and a very, I just, like feel is my way. And out of that, a tool that can be used as the facility condition index, which takes the data that you would have had, and allows you to work out this ratio. And also, this ratio, you're able to give an actual status of your building. In terms of whether it's fair, it's good, it’s poor. And that allows you as well, to get a measure in terms of how much deferred maintenance you have to do, compared to the worth or the value of your building. So, if you have a lot of things, because deferred maintenance just really refers to those things you've not quite gotten to. And it can be a very scary thing, if we leave it and we just let it fester there, right. So, if you have a very vast, a sign of very huge value, right, almost comparable to the worth of your billing, we are in trouble. We are in real trouble. So, what you always try to do is keep that ratio very low. So, it gives a measure and we have very little deferred maintenance compared to the value of our facility. And so, we're able with that now to also benchmark, if we are part of their compass or facilities, you know. We have multiple buildings, we're able to benchmark compare, and those are all very powerful, because facility management goes beyond just the day-to-day maintenance. It's about tracking, it's about trending, it's about forecasting, right. And as I mentioned too, it's about prevention as well, as we look at the bigger picture. So, as I said, just a really wonderful tool that you can use. And you know, you don't need to be a Facility Manager for 20 plus years to be able to do this. There are a lot of standards, a lot of other additional information that you could use to help support. They're actually, as I mentioned, an ASTM standard for facility condition assessments and it gives you a really nice framework as to how you can do it, and then you could sort of tweak it and make something that becomes your own for your organization. So, as I mentioned, this is really, really great, I love it. And I enjoy doing it for my clients just because of the value. I think it's able to give almost instantaneous value to them. Because they're able to see exactly what's going on in this building, and then able to plan to be able to address that. And to me, that's one of the best things I can do for anyone, considering their building.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, you mentioned from the beginning that when you first were introduced to this concept, to this assessment, the index, that you had thought to yourself, you know, why is everyone not doing this? Why are there people out there that are, you know, withholding this type of information or just not going through that process? Why is that? I mean, do you find that to be pretty common still to this day where people aren't going through this?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

I think for now, presently, it's more about persons just maybe wanting to know how, you know, and kind of getting a more structured approach to it. I think, as a Facility Manager, you do a subset of it, because we walk our buildings, you know. We check things, that's what we do naturally, but it's the documentation side which no one likes, no one likes to do report, you know. Not just do a report, actually do analysis and all that. Nobody likes that. So, I think that may be one of the reasons, you know, people may shy away from it in the industry. But, you know, you can't differentiate the two. Why are we, you know, monitoring and taking care of a facility, if we don't have the science behind that, you know, if we don't know, we can't track regularly. We’ve maintained something we don't have on record; you know. When was this piece of equipment last changed out, or when we did a major retrofit, you know? If we don't have that type of information, and we really go into it blind every time and it's not worth it, it's not worth it. So, as I mentioned, even if it's not you, in terms of you wanting to do it, or if you need help, there are a lot of information online, and then there are persons like me who come into your building, and could do it for you. So, there are a lot of people like me in that regard. But it's worth still as a Facility Manager, not that I'm talking myself out of business, but every facility manager to me should be doing some sort of condensed version of this on their buildings, at least I would say once a year. You know, to get that bigger picture, because we tend to always be out in these fires, right. And we mentioned you know, it's only when there's an emergency or something going wrong. But sometimes those events take up so much of our time, we really do an injustice to ourselves, because we don't give ourselves time to plan, time to, as I said, really apply the science to this industry, which would really help us to go that much further. So yeah, I think it's a combination of many different things. But, you know, I've seen a lot of webinars and information or white papers, and all these things that are out around facility condition assessment, because it's not a new thing. But as I said, it's once again, you know, just making it very easy and very simple in terms of how a facility manager could understand it and how they could do.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Are there specific KPIs that you're reporting on during these assessments?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Yes. So, what we do is basically the building systems. So, you break it down. You break down your building, like almost an elemental analysis. You look at structure, you look at mechanical, and you know, within mechanical you have your HVAC and all these things. Electrical, you know, and you really break it down into the subset. And then, you can use several things. So, when it comes to the actual equipment, you may look at the useful life and expected useful life for this piece of equipment. So that helps you measure, okay, it's in the next five years, we need to start thinking about changing out our cooling towers or our chillers or whatever. So that is actually something you benchmark against something that's actual data, that you need to source to be able to make those sorts of comparisons. You also could use chords in terms of the building codes and all these standards, because a lot of your billing systems need to comply with these codes. So, it's also that opportunity to look at that compliance factor, as well, especially for health and safety stuff. You know, in the midst of COVID-19, there was this whole new resurgence on oh, gosh, on your ventilation, right and air quality, you know. There was all about how do we get more fresh air into the buildings and all these things. So once again, do you know how much pressure is coming into your building? How would you know if it's not being measured, if it's not being tracked. So, you know, there are standards, I would say KPIs in terms of the building codes, the standard, the use for life and stuff like that. But you could also for your building, if you have some set KPIs in terms of say, how long you would want to sit in piece of equipment, or say even with your finishes, there are companies who also establish every 10 years, we change our carpets, you know, and stuff like that. Oh, we want to get rid of carpets completely, because it's not good. You know, so those are the sort of things you could use the condition assessment for to help you maybe phase those sorts of projects. If you want to retrofit the type of lights you have, you know, to get more energy saving equipment in there, all these things could be used. So, it's a lot of both low hanging fruits as well as you know, things we kind of need to work towards, and plan and prep, and build a budget around as well.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

And you mentioned a minimum, you should be doing it once a year.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

For sure.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

What is best practice? Are you talking quarterly twice a year? How frequently would you recommend that?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Yeah, I think you don't want to overkill, because remember, we're trying to stay away also from becoming complacent, right. So, this is you talking during your entire building, so it's going to take some time, right. And therefore, I think for me, I would suggest it once a year, and you plan for that. You know, you get your team involved. And you know, you have your templates, you have a checklist, you know, you have those KPIs that you mentioned. You know what we're looking for, you know, you have your specific data that you're trying to capture. And because we also need to know what we want out of this. So, I'll give you an example for one of my clients, they wanted out of their facility condition assessment outside of the typical, how's my AC performing. You know, how’s my energy, and stuff like that? They also wanted to know, are we in a position to become LEED certified? So, what's my readiness like? So, for us, we use the LEED checklists as another input into the facility condition assessment. Which wouldn't be a norm, but we're already working in building, we already go in through all the systems, so why not? Why not also use it? And present I’ve used it also, I mean I don’t know the client’s accessibility, right, against CADA standard, you know, and stuff like that. So, you know, you could do so much because you're taking the time to walk through your building. And, you know, you could use it to test your, you know, your sustainability level, you could also use it to test whether certain processes and protocols that you put in place is really working. You know, people really implementing these things, you know. So, as I said, just really, really a wonderful tool to get that bigger picture, yes, but also get granular information, that can help you tweak, that can help you strategize and also help you budget along the way.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah, that's, that's really helpful. And I certainly appreciate the context and the insights into those topics there. And before I let you go, I asked this to everybody and this my favorite question, but who or what has had the biggest impact on you in your career?

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

What a question. There have just been so many people. I can't name names. I'll just tell you why. On a personal level, it has to be my parents, alright. You know, because they're just wonderful and so supportive and everything. In a work level, professional level, I've been blessed in having so many role models. Persons who if I'm confused about something, I want clarity about something, I could just, you know, send a WhatsApp, I could call, like shoot a message and I know I'm going to get a response. You know, these are who I consider like the FM guru zero, they're like, they’re big in the FM world. And, you know, just seeing how they operate and how they are always so willing to listen and willing to give advice and stuff to me, that is just wonderful. So, I've not answered your question, but that is my perspective. Because there are just so many moving parts. I think because I still consider myself young in the field. I know there are going to be so much more people as well along the way. So, I'm just grateful for all of them. And the parts that they play in my life professionally, and you know, personally.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Yeah. I think that, the key point there is that you need a mentor, getting into the industry and then continuing I mean, you just were awarded 40, under 40, through the most well-known organization, facilities management, and yet you are falling back on and asking for help from people still to this day. So that is, you know, big takeaway there, get a mentor, get many mentors, and don't be afraid to ask for help.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Definitely ask the silly questions. Because there are no silly answers, trust me.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Well, Giselle, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a pleasure talking to you and hearing your story and your insights. And like I said, thank you for the time and looking forward to staying in touch with you.

Speaker: Giselle Holder  

Same to you Griffin. Thanks very much.

Speaker: Griffin Hamilton  

Take care.

Outro:

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